Update on Intuit / Quickbooks debacle

One omission from the above is experience with other products, especially Sage. So questions such as:

have you used other bookkeeping products?
have you used Sage?

Another one might be expected speed of response.

PS: why the puzzle over the Canadians? The Canadian search market is quite different to the US one…

One omission from the above is experience with other products, especially Sage. So questions such as:

have you used other bookkeeping products?
have you used Sage?

Another one might be expected speed of response.

PS: why the puzzle over the Canadians? The Canadian search market is quite different to the US one…

a few thoughts:
- Company growth plans (%age a year)
– Audit threashold (UK only) below/above
– Payroll status (internal / outsourced : automated / handbuilt)
– Experience of other accounting software (sage etc.)

a few thoughts:
- Company growth plans (%age a year)
– Audit threashold (UK only) below/above
– Payroll status (internal / outsourced : automated / handbuilt)
– Experience of other accounting software (sage etc.)

Interesting situation – and a challenge that may yield rewards.

Since you mentioned Value segmentation, it would be interesting to ask Melanie just one thing about that: does their Value model or formula account for referrals made by a customer? Does advocacy (or otherwise) impact in any way a customer’s value, besides buying patterns and spend?

But back to the Needs question: I would add to your suggestions also:

- Simplicity (basic users happy with older versions) v/s Scaleability and extended functionality
- Resources and competence (Joe Public or Mom&Pop Biz v/s companies with dedicated accounting and IT staff – note both these areas!)
- IT environment (hardware and OS platforms and intended evolution thereof, other applications that require import/export or closer integration; networking and mobility etc)
- Support requirements (independence v/s hand-holding, both technical and functional) and service levels (the latter should be correlated to Value, but this is not the only point where Value and Needs are interwoven)
- Patterns of license purchase, extension (seats) and upgrades (versions) -and budgeting characteristics behind that
- Individuals v/s companies: decision-makers, influencers, budget-owners etc – and the personal agendas of each individual involved
- ‘Social’ aspects: those who prefer to belong to a community, network and share – v/s standalone independent-minded users.

- – -

Note how I already formulated many of those as ‘bipolar’ dimensions with opposites at the ends of a scale/axis. This makes it easier to eventually turn clusters into segments. Needs (unlike Value) are manifested in clusters with overlaps and gaps, and for consistent strategies and management we need more stable and distinct entities, dimensions help).

- – -

We need to remember that none of the above are, actually, needs. True Needs are things that answer one of 3 questions – or, rather, complete sentences starting with:

- Give me…
- Save me…
- Help me to…

As in: Give me peace of mind (reliability, stability, predictability, simplicity). Or – Help me to stay in compliance with the Tax authorities (optimise my tax, keep track of my finances, monitor and plan my business). Or, of course – Save me time (money, hassle etc).

These are real, fundamental needs – the B2B equivalent of Maslow’s hierarchy

- – - -

Because real Needs are rather fuzzy and difficult to quantify and put in a database for segmentation purposes, marketers have been using for ages various PROXIES (indicators of needs, substitute variables) that are easier to capture/measure.

All classical B2C segmentations by Demographics, Behaviours, Lifestyles, Attitudes etc – are just Proxies for Needs (few marketers ever think about it, and continue blindly to use them, because.. everyone else does).

The B2B equivalents like Company Size (by turnover, employees or market share), Vertical Sector, Form of Ownership (private, listed etc) – and all the above suggestions – are also Proxies for Needs.

- – - -

Nothing wrong with using proxies for practical purposes, we only need to remember the real Need behind the porxy – it’s worth trying each time to ‘translate’ the above suggestions into wording that would complete the ‘Give me-Save me-Helpme to’ test.

It is advisable to start with the longest possible list of proxies, then prioritise them by just 2 simple criteria:

- to what extent they directly(!) represent a real Need, and
- availability of data (or viable practical ways to acquire data) about the proxy.

With some companies where the method was applied we have shortlisted half a dozen from as many as 50 proxies, resulting in a rather numeric model (supported with real data) that gives Management an actionable view of their customers.

Combined with Value Segmentation in a single matrix (where Needs is the other dimension), this becomes an indispensable customer strategy and operational management tool – hotly recommended!

I hope this helps,
V.

Interesting situation – and a challenge that may yield rewards.

Since you mentioned Value segmentation, it would be interesting to ask Melanie just one thing about that: does their Value model or formula account for referrals made by a customer? Does advocacy (or otherwise) impact in any way a customer’s value, besides buying patterns and spend?

But back to the Needs question: I would add to your suggestions also:

- Simplicity (basic users happy with older versions) v/s Scaleability and extended functionality
- Resources and competence (Joe Public or Mom&Pop Biz v/s companies with dedicated accounting and IT staff – note both these areas!)
- IT environment (hardware and OS platforms and intended evolution thereof, other applications that require import/export or closer integration; networking and mobility etc)
- Support requirements (independence v/s hand-holding, both technical and functional) and service levels (the latter should be correlated to Value, but this is not the only point where Value and Needs are interwoven)
- Patterns of license purchase, extension (seats) and upgrades (versions) -and budgeting characteristics behind that
- Individuals v/s companies: decision-makers, influencers, budget-owners etc – and the personal agendas of each individual involved
- ‘Social’ aspects: those who prefer to belong to a community, network and share – v/s standalone independent-minded users.

- – -

Note how I already formulated many of those as ‘bipolar’ dimensions with opposites at the ends of a scale/axis. This makes it easier to eventually turn clusters into segments. Needs (unlike Value) are manifested in clusters with overlaps and gaps, and for consistent strategies and management we need more stable and distinct entities, dimensions help).

- – -

We need to remember that none of the above are, actually, needs. True Needs are things that answer one of 3 questions – or, rather, complete sentences starting with:

- Give me…
- Save me…
- Help me to…

As in: Give me peace of mind (reliability, stability, predictability, simplicity). Or – Help me to stay in compliance with the Tax authorities (optimise my tax, keep track of my finances, monitor and plan my business). Or, of course – Save me time (money, hassle etc).

These are real, fundamental needs – the B2B equivalent of Maslow’s hierarchy

- – - -

Because real Needs are rather fuzzy and difficult to quantify and put in a database for segmentation purposes, marketers have been using for ages various PROXIES (indicators of needs, substitute variables) that are easier to capture/measure.

All classical B2C segmentations by Demographics, Behaviours, Lifestyles, Attitudes etc – are just Proxies for Needs (few marketers ever think about it, and continue blindly to use them, because.. everyone else does).

The B2B equivalents like Company Size (by turnover, employees or market share), Vertical Sector, Form of Ownership (private, listed etc) – and all the above suggestions – are also Proxies for Needs.

- – - -

Nothing wrong with using proxies for practical purposes, we only need to remember the real Need behind the porxy – it’s worth trying each time to ‘translate’ the above suggestions into wording that would complete the ‘Give me-Save me-Helpme to’ test.

It is advisable to start with the longest possible list of proxies, then prioritise them by just 2 simple criteria:

- to what extent they directly(!) represent a real Need, and
- availability of data (or viable practical ways to acquire data) about the proxy.

With some companies where the method was applied we have shortlisted half a dozen from as many as 50 proxies, resulting in a rather numeric model (supported with real data) that gives Management an actionable view of their customers.

Combined with Value Segmentation in a single matrix (where Needs is the other dimension), this becomes an indispensable customer strategy and operational management tool – hotly recommended!

I hope this helps,
V.

I agree with all the items you have above, Rebecca. How about online vs. offline behavior? A pure ecommerce business would have different needs than a storefront, as would someone who had both.

With online you get all kinds of great usage data as well – do I do a little bit each day or do I save it all up until the end of the month?

PS I’m an Intuit customer for my website (Homestead) in the interest of full disclosure.

Just a few thoughts, if I have more I will chime back in!
All the best,
Anne

Guys – thank you all for quick, considered responses.

Rachel – the puzzle was rather that the Canadian and UK search markets are considered similar…

William – yes competitor product experiences definitely important especially if there is a ‘flight’ from one to the other going on which could be tapped into.

Anne – I like the idea of online vs offline or both (3 categories) as many accounting solutions don’t themselves offer online integration with eCommerce – they rely on third party plugins. Which Intuit product do you use?

Vlado – wow – what an essay. A lot of great ideas and suggestions.

Guys – thank you all for quick, considered responses.

Rachel – the puzzle was rather that the Canadian and UK search markets are considered similar…

William – yes competitor product experiences definitely important especially if there is a ‘flight’ from one to the other going on which could be tapped into.

Anne – I like the idea of online vs offline or both (3 categories) as many accounting solutions don’t themselves offer online integration with eCommerce – they rely on third party plugins. Which Intuit product do you use?

Vlado – wow – what an essay. A lot of great ideas and suggestions.

Hi Rebecca

Just two thoughts to add…
- some users will be using the software to manage simple businesses – contrractors with very few purchases and invoices vs traders with large numbers of both. So for first group, Quickbooks is a convenience; for the second, it’s an essential business management tool.

- some users will be preparing accounts for accountants, others will *be* accountants. The level and language of support that each would expect ought to be entirely different.

hth

Hi Rebecca

Just two thoughts to add…
- some users will be using the software to manage simple businesses – contrractors with very few purchases and invoices vs traders with large numbers of both. So for first group, Quickbooks is a convenience; for the second, it’s an essential business management tool.

- some users will be preparing accounts for accountants, others will *be* accountants. The level and language of support that each would expect ought to be entirely different.

hth

Yes, Will
the needs of those two groups are clearly different and as Don Peppers says “Treat Different Customers Differently”.
R

Yes, Will
the needs of those two groups are clearly different and as Don Peppers says “Treat Different Customers Differently”.
R

Hi Rebecca
Great input from the earlier contributors
One segmentation thought that struck me as an obvious, but hasn’t emerged above, is the country in which the client is operating as that will impact regulatory and compliance factors that may or may not be supported in the product – and so have an intelligence feed back to Product R&D with campaigns triggered on external changes becoming supported by product functionality
Or am I on a different page today?
Cheers … Philip

Hi Rebecca
Great input from the earlier contributors
One segmentation thought that struck me as an obvious, but hasn’t emerged above, is the country in which the client is operating as that will impact regulatory and compliance factors that may or may not be supported in the product – and so have an intelligence feed back to Product R&D with campaigns triggered on external changes becoming supported by product functionality
Or am I on a different page today?
Cheers … Philip

Interesting thread, Rebecca, but it does rather tug my cynicism chain…

The dimension missing from this is the purely commercial one: where does Intuit make money? My understanding (as an ex-Intuit user, now MYOB for my own small business) is that they shift boxes. You pay your licence, they laugh and pocket the cash, and then mail you to try and flog payroll or tax table updates or a new version.

The fundamental problem is that you’re approaching them as if they’re a “Service” company, rather than a ‘box-shifting’ company. All of the comments in this thread seem predicated upon the notion that there’s a profitable service to be given to the SMEs.

FWIW I think that until your client has a remit to provide this service and the SMEs (notoriously difficult to prise from their money) are willing to pay for a service then many of these initiatives will just expose the hollowness at the heart of the proposition.

Will’s points are interesting (about the use of the software in the context of broader financial/audit/accounting support) and I think that this can tap into a broader discussion about value. With an annual cost of £300 for the software, and a £2000+ accounting bill, can QB either save on accounting fees, deliver better value OR is it competing with the accountants and advisors for the incremental £500 of annual advisory fees?

FWIW I think that it’s good to profile customer uses and wants, and to address the profitable intersection. Importantly, though, Intuit could be more open with its knowledge-base and advisory documents – so that one, quality-assured piece of learning can be turned into a service.

More substance, greater transparency, improved focus on the customer needs, less marketing guff.

Cheers
ikj

Interesting thread, Rebecca, but it does rather tug my cynicism chain…

The dimension missing from this is the purely commercial one: where does Intuit make money? My understanding (as an ex-Intuit user, now MYOB for my own small business) is that they shift boxes. You pay your licence, they laugh and pocket the cash, and then mail you to try and flog payroll or tax table updates or a new version.

The fundamental problem is that you’re approaching them as if they’re a “Service” company, rather than a ‘box-shifting’ company. All of the comments in this thread seem predicated upon the notion that there’s a profitable service to be given to the SMEs.

FWIW I think that until your client has a remit to provide this service and the SMEs (notoriously difficult to prise from their money) are willing to pay for a service then many of these initiatives will just expose the hollowness at the heart of the proposition.

Will’s points are interesting (about the use of the software in the context of broader financial/audit/accounting support) and I think that this can tap into a broader discussion about value. With an annual cost of £300 for the software, and a £2000+ accounting bill, can QB either save on accounting fees, deliver better value OR is it competing with the accountants and advisors for the incremental £500 of annual advisory fees?

FWIW I think that it’s good to profile customer uses and wants, and to address the profitable intersection. Importantly, though, Intuit could be more open with its knowledge-base and advisory documents – so that one, quality-assured piece of learning can be turned into a service.

More substance, greater transparency, improved focus on the customer needs, less marketing guff.

Cheers
ikj

Hi Rebecca,

Very interesting comments and I completely agree with the approach, based on what the customer needs, rather than what the company can sell being pushed onto them.

Following Anne’s comments, I would also focus on “how” the customer is targeted and how they can reach out to the company. Regardless of the channel, they must still be one unique person to the company and the company must show “one” brand / one experience to the prospect / customer.

When it comes to acquiring new customers there are 2 things to remember:
1- Give them enough information in the right format – we all compare and if there is not enough on e.g. the site, I will move onto another one – probably a competitor.
2- This information has to be provided through the preferred channel and yet, seamless: identify the customer on the phone is the same person that has just filled the form online. It is much easier to track things online than offline, but some people still like the phone.

I am not suggesting a full-blown e-commerce solution is affordable or advisable for all, but I believe the approach should be to solve the need of the customer through their preferred channel.

For full disclosure, I work with ATG who provide e-commerce software.

Hi Rebecca,

Very interesting comments and I completely agree with the approach, based on what the customer needs, rather than what the company can sell being pushed onto them.

Following Anne’s comments, I would also focus on “how” the customer is targeted and how they can reach out to the company. Regardless of the channel, they must still be one unique person to the company and the company must show “one” brand / one experience to the prospect / customer.

When it comes to acquiring new customers there are 2 things to remember:
1- Give them enough information in the right format – we all compare and if there is not enough on e.g. the site, I will move onto another one – probably a competitor.
2- This information has to be provided through the preferred channel and yet, seamless: identify the customer on the phone is the same person that has just filled the form online. It is much easier to track things online than offline, but some people still like the phone.

I am not suggesting a full-blown e-commerce solution is affordable or advisable for all, but I believe the approach should be to solve the need of the customer through their preferred channel.

For full disclosure, I work with ATG who provide e-commerce software.

I agree with all the items you have above, Rebecca. How about online vs. offline behavior? A pure ecommerce business would have different needs than a storefront, as would someone who had both.

With online you get all kinds of great usage data as well – do I do a little bit each day or do I save it all up until the end of the month?

PS I'm an Intuit customer for my website (Homestead) in the interest of full disclosure.

Just a few thoughts, if I have more I will chime back in!
All the best,
Anne