Jeff Howe – Wired magazine
Maike Samson crowdspring.com
David Carson david Carson Design (I am not in Jeff's book)
Lydia Mann AIGA
Jeffrey Kalmikoff Threadless (we're in Jeff's book)
Jeremiah Owyang Forrester
What is spec work? Done without compensatio for the client's consideration. There is now a marketplace where consumers of graphic work can post briefs to graphic designers who submit work in the hope of being selected.
[Later: Here's the edited video put up by the organisers]
Does spec work democratise the industry or devalue the professionals?
Jeffrey – I see both sides but my view is I'm not sure what the answer is. David Carson – yes it devalues the profession of individual designers – cheapens the industry. Lydia AIJ is against spec work. We had a discussion last year on the website. Lydia – It is hard enough to do great deisng under the best of circumstances
and spec work is pretty much the worst circumstances. JEremiah – it's
here to stay and will increase in a recesssion. Mike Sampson – this democratises the industry and creates a level playing filed. 17,000 creatives on crowdspring and the opportunity and access to clients is equal.
Who is using this? Is it a new market or a cannabilisation of existing markets for graphic services.
Samson – on the buy side we see a range of buyers from SMEs, individuals up to agencies, brands looking for ideas. Majority are small businesses. It's the people we built the site for.
Howe – compare to the stock photography market where there was cannibalisation and lots of traditional buyers went to istockphoto and it decimated the industry. Will this happen for graphic design?
Mann – design is about communication and this starts with a relationship. Spec work is design in a vacuum. Understanding the client's goals / challenges leads to problem solving and the creation of a solution. Posting a project without that give and take precludes this relationship. Money demonstrates the client's commitment to that relationnship. Carson – no serious, professional designer should be associated with this site. Talking to ad agencies there is a blacklisting of agencies that do associate with crowdspring's website. Why spend as little as possible on the public design face representing your company?
Samson – we don't provide anything except tools to facilitate communication between buyers and sellers. Some of the workers are hobbyists, stay at home Moms and serious professionals. Their reasons to be there range from wanting to learn, practice logo design etc. Kalmikoff – they pair inexperienced designers with small companies. It's a medium for practicing design. The designers don't need to have a relationship because it's a one-time shop e.g. a logo for a shop sign. the quality of work is not going to be at a high level. Carson – sharpening your skills by endlessly submitting logos from clipart – this does not sharpen skills. Working with other professionals, training, workshops sharpen skills.
It is tough for young designers – jobs need 3-5 years experience. These sites can supply work experience for us.
Owyang – a new markethas formed a new tier of designers for low price services. I did an experiment and the winner was from Budapest and $250 was a lot for him. It matters what I, the buyer, thinks is the best to buy. Not what a professional designer thinks…… Carson – businessses go out of business regularly and one of the reasons is bad logo design. [WTF which planet is he on?]. Recent graduates will find jobs – teh good ones rise to the top…. they don't quit their dreams if they are passionate about design. Kalmikoff there is no feedback or communication from designers – it's all competition not collaboration. There are no quality controls.
What about competition and lack of collaboration – istock photos sold a community to photograhpers not photos.
Samson – our forums have lots of posts – e.g. responding to design brief recommendations for buyers. They share templates and advice. In the threads for each project this happens too. We call this "Community". They are there to participate and learn and teach. For ever creatives come out of school and they need a job and they need experience – they take apprenticeships and internshipts and they use that to build experience – we enable that in a bigger, different way that the internet allows. Carson – they are having a lower level discussions. It's interesting to have a site selling design that has such poor design. Kalmikoff – just because you have community on the top of your site doesnt' mean you have community in your business!
What about the buyer side – you need them too.
Jowyang I got a load of sub-standard designs. I provided a load of comments (70) and I spent a lot of time rebriefing and responding to the bids I got. Howe – 90% of crowdsourced stuff will suck – if the community doesn't have a filter and if you aren't prepared to wade through it there's a problem.
Is this indevitable and you have to accept it or can we shape it and make a future that includes spec work or should no spec be the future?
Kalmikoff -Hollywood is based on spec audition work… the negative is pushing it online but looking at the whole industry it's a micro-minority of the industry. They won't grow to take over the industry – it will not be a threat to the top of the industry.
Carson – these are not artists and people who are passionate about design – they are business people trying to do a startup and that reflects in the site design. Bottom – feeders will always exist in buyers and sellers. I hope they go out of business withing 3 years along with half the total businesses formed.
Mann – I want to hear stories about designers who've had a positive experience that has grown over time that started with spec work? personally I've never heard of this happening. Technology has made this easier – enabling people to present themselves as designers (whether they are or not).
owyang – this is here to stay. The twitter logo was spec work. Mashable is doing a design contest too. Spec work has its upsides of being inexpensive. It requires a lot of work for the buyer to participate. It's very tactical. Never outsource your design strategy businesses. Designers – offer more than tactics – be part of the thinking and branding go upmarket.
Samson – it's a market expander not a cannibalizer. it gives access to good design for lots of smes who didn't have access to it before. Small businesses are the engine of growth in this country. 30% of US GDP is attributable to them. They need access to this and they can't afford a $5k logo – the internet enables this. 50% of our designers get follow on work from clients after they win a first project. It continues to drive their careers and help them make a living.
#specwork09
Questions:
In the recession clients ask agencies to be more prescriptive and stop listening to ideas – do we see this type of work as continuing or is it contributing to the model of lesser work? As a creative professional you do know 'better' what servs the client. Treat a designer like any professional – get their opinion and treat is like it is.
Where would you expect small businesses to access designers without crowdspring? The customer is NOT stupid. Carson – businesses have got logos for years without these services. Why not continue? [boy is he a dinosaur] Mann – a sliding scale is the answer it's about being compensated for your intellectual property.
How can a newspaper move to an online model of spec work? Buyers choice – there is room for both. Samson – add value is the only way to make it work.
Spec work is just another tier of design as blogging is to media. Howe – this is adding to a complex ecosystem. Owyang – any marketer who has a blog is trying to sell their ideas in order to demonstrate thought leadership and it's happening in other industries too. Carson – design is different from the other industries – sites like this lower the value. Mann – designers show the concept by impelenting it.. selling the 'whole cow' it's not like architects where they are just selling a sketch. People give away the full product on these sites. Samson – for hundreds of years wirters have written with out a publisher, musicians write and perform without a fee. Mann – but they are not writing for someone else's spec. There is a difference.
Carson – you are on a sinking ship it sounds like print journalists in 2001 complaining about bloggers. What industry hasn't been improved by competition.
As a business that can't afford to pay a top designer – you try something out and if it works you go back for more. Carson it's insulting to small businesses that if we have a bad logo we are a bad business.
Kalmikoff – two years ago before this was possible design agnecy startups somehow got work and got work done. There has come a way to get stuff done that is simple. This discounts other ways to get design work done that co-exist…. e.g. offering a small equity stake or supercheap because you believe in what they are doing. You can get work 100x buetter than putting a brief on crowdspring by going and actually talking to a design agency direct.
How is Threadless different from crowdspring?
Kalmikoff – Thredless is not a contest it's an open call. There's no start / end date. it has only to fit the specs of what's possible to print. Threadless pays 5x the industry standard for t shirt design £2500. And a further £2500 if best of the month. £500 if it gets reprinted. A world of opportunities for people getting work and noticed by big brands. Samson – crowdspring in 10 months has escrowed £1m. Threadless pays out £1m per year. it's not about dollar value its about providing opportunity for designers on all these platforms.
Andy Robinson – who invented the title of the panel. What's the goal – the sliding scale market needs a means for designers to connect with the market. but completing custom work for a 'chance' of getting paid is scary.
Samson we don't claim to be the indsutry standard. I don't think it will evolve that way – I think we will be an option. Kalmikoff – It's 99Designs model with you guys took…they have a sliding scale business. Samson – Threadless was our inspriation! Kalmikoff – this is a perfect example of you having no idea what you're talking about. There are lots of business models out there and we are one of them. It has margins higher than 15%.
As a client it educated me that I may not be educated enough on how to make a good choice for a designer – how do I help myself without making it such a high time effort that it's not worth doing?
Kalmikoff – the answer is consulting – I mean mentoring and advice. Ask your mates. Owyang – I disagree. You need a branding/ marketing strategy and your brief should communicate what you want. Ask the designers what they think your market wants for your particular project. Crowdsource it.
Jason from 99Designs – I think the value of the communication is underevalued. Designers really help each other and they love what they are doing and the feedback they get. They hone their skills and develop an eye – we're not talking about the fine graphic arts, this is functional. A different tier. We facilitate the connection and help to build leads. 50% of jobs lead to follow-on work. Howe – this is not just a market place it is a talent finding service. Carson was asked to take a strong stand – we wanted to have a debate as a strong panel.
[Later - continue the debate about 99Designs at Sitepoint]
Tags: , crowdspring, speculative design work, threadless
